Full Episode: New York Still Doesn't Have a State Budget. What's Next?

Full transcript of New York Still Doesn't Have a State Budget. What's Next?

Dan Clark: We are now one-week past New York's deadline for a state budget, and so far we still don't have a spending plan for the next 12 months. and frankly, we don't really know when we will. After cruising past the initial deadline last week, lawmakers and Governor Hochul approved a budget extender on Monday, and that expires this coming Monday, April 10th.

As far as we know, progress has been slow. In the first half of the week, budget negotiations were almost exclusively about changes to the state's bail reform law. Assembly Speaker Carl Heastie said this on Monday.

Carl Heastie: I would say bail is now taking up pretty much all the oxygen in the room and everything else is second. I mean, conversations are still being had, but I'd say it was bail and housing that were 90%, bail itself now 90%.

DC: By the middle of the week that had changed. Heastie told reporters that other issues are now being discussed as part of budget talks. 

Governor Kathy Hochul told reporters that she's not expecting a budget deal by the coming deadline. We're expecting another extender, though we don't know for how long. That's because we don't really know if a deal is close or if it's weeks away.

Senate Republican leader Rob Ortt had this to say.

Rob Ortt: This is for me, eight years, the first time I can ever remember getting to this date with really just absolutely no clarity on a state budget, even a framework, table targets, anything like that.

DC: We're not expecting to learn more until Monday. More on that with this week's panel, but first, some environmental news at the Capitol this week. 

The Hochul administration is pushing a change in the state's energy transition that they say will reduce costs for consumers over the next few decades, but environmentalists say it would downplay the impact of emissions from methane, the main component of natural gas.

It all goes back to 2019, when New York passed its landmark climate law. That law set the state's ambitious climate targets over the next three decades. Those include a 40% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2030 and an 85% reduction by 2050. To get there, the law outlined a way to measure carbon emissions. Right now, emissions from methane would be measured over 20 years.

The Hochul administration, through new legislation, wants to change that to 100 years, and that's a big change. State DEC (Department of Environmental Conservation) Commissioner Basil Seggos says without it, the costs for consumers will be higher. 

Basil Seggos: What that translates into is upwards of $0.62 a gallon of gasoline increase and an 80% increase in home heating costs, and that obviously gave us cause for concern.

DC: Before we explain how it would save consumers money, I want to break down the science of it and why environmentalists are against it. Methane is a really potent fossil fuel. According to the U.S. EPA, it's 25 times stronger than CO2, another greenhouse gas. But the thing about methane is that it breaks down in the air relatively fast. [Source]

After about 12 years, methane dissipates and leaves behind CO2 and water. So, if you look at the climate impact of methane over 20 years, it's going to look really strong because a lot of it will still be in the atmosphere, but if you measure it over 100 years, the emissions from methane look smaller because most of it will have broken down.

That's why environmentalists are against the change. 

Anna Kelles: What this bill will do is it will water down our estimation of methane. Methane is in the atmosphere for a maximum of 12 years, but this is saying that we will measure it on 100 years, which means that for 90 years of it, where it has zero impact, it will water down the ten years that it has a tremendous impact.

DC: So that's the science side of it, now for the cost.

We know that reducing emissions to meet the state's climate goals will be expensive, especially for power producers and distributors, and those companies can pass on those costs to consumers. So, if the state changes how methane is measured and that shows emissions as lower over a longer time, those companies don't have to work as hard to meet their emissions goals.

So, in other words, good for the fossil fuel industry, but less good for the environment. The hope, the state says, is that it would be cheaper for consumers. NYSERDA (Energy Research and Development Authority) CEO Doreen Harris said this.

Doreen Harris: When you put that all together, it means there are substantial costs that will be borne by New Yorkers that they otherwise wouldn't have to pay. And that's a central aspect of why we are advancing this change so that it's affordable for New Yorkers to realize the Climate Act’s goals.

DC: The Hochul administration walked back that proposal saying it's still on the table, but that they won't push for it in the budget. 

Let's talk about that and more with this week's panel. Jon Campbell is from Gothamist and WNYC, and Zach Williams is from The New York Post. Thank you both for being here.

Dan Clark: Jon, I want to turn to you first about this methane thing. We've explained the science so we don't have to rehash that, we’ve explained the cost savings. I'm more interested in the really big push for this at the start of the week from the Hochul administration, and then by the middle of the week, they kind of backed off and said, never mind.

Jon Campbell: Yeah, absolutely, and what happened in between? You saw environmental groups and environmental advocates really rise up against it and say it would be a way of essentially gutting this top in the nation climate law that they were so proud of just a couple of years ago. So you saw the strength of the environmental movement stand up, that said it's not dead. I mean, the Hochul administration says, well, you know, we're not going to prioritize it in the budget negotiations, but it's still going to be hanging around, there's still going to be a standalone bill, even if it doesn't find its way in here, and there will be more debate about this in the future.

DC: I'm so interested in the behind-the-scenes part of this whole thing that we're probably never going to find out where on Monday it was a very big priority, and then two days later, they had to just claw it back because of some very powerful voices at the Capitol and the environmentalists. I know the governor in particular wants climate to be part of her legacy, so I can imagine that it is a big deal. 

Zach, I saw this as kind of part of a larger pattern from this administration of kind of trying to do something and then people who might be considered more progressive have kind of stopping that because they have a growing power at the Capitol. What do you think about that?

Zach Williams: What we've seen in recent months, the governor has made a series of kind of baffling moves, you know, nominating Judge LaSalle to be the Chief Judge of the Court of Appeals, and now with this environmental proposal where she kind of put it out there, she couldn't possibly have thought that it was going to go over well, but she did it anyways, only to backtrack after, at least in this case a pretty stunning display of pressure from the environmental movement that I think makes an interesting comparison with what we've seen on bail reform.

Here we have the governor enraging the left on multiple fronts, but whereas she quickly retreated on the environmental proposal and on recalculating methane emissions, she's still sticking to her guns on this very controversial proposal to overhaul cash bail laws despite, years of pressure, and that is continuing up and through budget talks. I guess the governor in this case bit off a little bit more than she could chew and then kind of stood back and said, no, I want to fight about bail and concentrate on that.

DC: Budget negotiations are happening every day, they will be happening this weekend. It's a holiday weekend, the leaders will still be in town, presumably. Is bail reform still the sticking point in your eyes, Zach? Is that kind of where we are still compared to the early part of the week?

ZW: Bail reform has really set the tone for all the negotiations between the governor and the legislature. You know, all the talk about the delayed budget, that's mostly because of bail. There have been disagreements about housing and of course, some other proposals. But Speaker Carl Heastie earlier this week said that bail was sucking up like 90% of the political oxygen in budget talks.

Now there were hints a little bit later in the week that they were covering other topics as well, but I think everybody that's watching these negotiations closely would say that until they figure out bail and what the legislature gets and what the governor gets, it's going to be pretty hard to kind of branch out into all the other issues that they're going to solve here.

DC: Jon, can you talk about the dynamics of this for members of our audience that may not be familiar with the budget process? The governor has extraordinary power in the budget process in New York. Is this a typical move from a governor in New York to try to get what they want?

JC: Well, it was a typical move in the pre-Cuomo years. Budgets were late and very late and governors often tried to use that to their advantage, use that as leverage to get things that they wanted, in part because when the budget is late, lawmakers don't get paid. Their pay is withheld until that fall budget is in place.

That's the situation we have now. Governor Hochul has made very clear in her two years that she is willing to push the budget late in order to get what she wants. She got some bail changes last year, she got the Buffalo Bills stadium deal included in the budget last year in part by going nine days late. So, we're seeing that happen this year as well.

Whether or not she'll be successful, I mean, she is really holding out for her changes to the bail laws. She wants to remove the “least restrictive standard”, and she's making it very clear that's what she wants and that's what she's going to hold out for.

DC: You know, I did find it interesting, as you said, Zach, that by the middle of the week, they seem to be talking about other things besides bail. Probably not to a great extent, but I think the other big conflict here is the housing proposal from the governor. It's gotten a lot of pushback, particularly from people in the suburbs who don't like the requirement to build housing near transit, for example and they honestly, just don't like the requirement to build housing. They want to do it on their terms and in their own way. Jon, do you still see that as a sticking point at this point in the process?

JC: Oh, absolutely, I mean that's the other big sticking point. As Andrea Stewart-Cousins, the Senate leader, said, the idea of whether or not they’re going to go with the carrot approach or the stick approach, and whether or not their housing plan is going to be based on, “punitive measures” where the state can step in and override local control or if it's going to start with offering incentives to try to incentivize the building of housing locally.

That said, there are other big issues out there beyond those two that we have no idea where they're at right now. Charter schools is one where the governor and the legislature are diametrically opposed. The governor wants to expand charter schools in New York City, the legislature very much does not, the teachers union very much does not, and they're very powerful force in Albany. So, even after you get past bail and housing, you still have these other issues that you have to tackle.

DC: I was just going to bring up funding for the MTA to go to you Zack. It's another one of those issues, and as you said Jon, there are a lot of these… I don't want to call them smaller issues, but I think they're issues that maybe the general public might not be as familiar with. You know, charter schools are very big in New York City, not so big in areas of upstate, but MTA funding in some ways affects the entire state. 

For people in the five boroughs and the suburbs it's literally like the blood in their veins of that city. But the more money you put towards the MTA, you may have to take away money somewhere else. So I think that that's a really interesting thing to be watching right now.

What do you think that looks like right now, Zach? Do we know anything about the funding for the MTA?

ZW: Well, there's another actor in these negotiations down the Hudson in New York City, and that's Mayor Eric Adams. What's so interesting is that for a moderate Democrat, as he's often called, he's been really siding with the lawmakers on some several key issues. Now, the governor has proposed that New York City pay 500 million more into the MTA every year, and for obvious reasons, the mayor does not like this idea, and he has also been very quiet on bail reform, an issue that he's spoken quite vocally about in the past and also kind of tried to have it both ways with charter schools, something he's spoken favorably about in the past. 

So, whereas the governor maybe in the past could have leaned on Mayor Adams or at least had hope that she could lean on him to at least help with some of these proposals, he really seems to be holding out with the legislative leaders, trying to maximize funding for his own city. 

That's going to give the legislative leaders another tool in their toolbox, as we say, to kind of come back at the governor and try to get her to not only abandon that proposal for the MTA, but also her proposed increase tax on payroll, on businesses. Speaking of another group in the legislature that’s very powerful, it’s moderate suburban lawmakers. They don't like that idea, they don't like the housing plan, and they're not so keen on what the governor also wants to do on some other fronts, charter schools, for instance. 

So, the governor, if she wants to overcome this resistance, is going to have to do it seemingly unilaterally, because the mayor of New York City doesn't seem too eager to help.

DC: John, is that a challenge for the governor?

JC: Oh of course it's a challenge for the governor, this whole thing's a challenge for the governor. You know there are other issues even on top of that. She wants a ban on menthol cigarettes, that's something where the legislature is resisting. So, there's just not a lot of uniformity right now aside from maybe education funding, which is usually a big problem.

DC: Right. It’s interesting to see because, five years ago I think that we would know more by now about the budget, but because of the nature of zoom leader meetings at points, not always, we don't have all the information that we usually have. So hopefully we will know more next week.

Thank you both for your time.

Zach Williams from The New York Post and John Campbell from Gothamist and WNYC.

Follow our live blog for real time updates on the state budget negotiations. 

Dan Clark: One thing we're not expecting as part of the state budget this year is higher worker wages for people in prison who say their current pay is not enough. That's prompted a bigger question about what they do and why. Alexis Young has that story.

Alexis Young: During the thick of the pandemic local governments in New York State were struggling to get their hands on hand sanitizer. In March 2020, regular bottles of Purell hand sanitizer had skyrocketed on Amazon and eBay, and after requesting an end to what then Governor Cuomo called price gouging, he found a $6.10 cent per gallon solution, prison labor.

The 56th governor of New York State, had incarcerated individuals produce New York State clean hand sanitizer, 11 million bottles of it, leaving an excess of 700,000 gallons.

Incarcerated individuals make an hourly wage between ten and $0.65 in New York prisons. Some activists and legislators refer to the system as forced prison labor or slave labor.

Zellnor Myrie: If you spoke to any everyday New Yorker and you ask them whether slavery still exists today, they would say, of course not… of course not. 

We are hundreds of years past the end of slavery, but we today in this New York Constitution still have slavery embedded in our laws.

AY: Not all New York lawmakers agree. Ranker for the Crime Victims, Crime and Correction Senate Committee Senator Patrick Gallivan from the 60th District near Rochester opposes the bill and doesn't recognize prison labor as forced or slave labor.

Patrick Gallivan: I don't agree with the premise that it's, quote, slave labor, quote unquote. I think it's part of a program while they are in prison. It’s part of a rehabilitative process, and as it relates to actually spending time on a work assignment, it's doing something constructive.

AY: According to the Department of Correctional and Community Services (DoCCS), correction law states that incarcerated individuals be enrolled in treatment programs and work assignments. That work makes incarcerated individuals, employees at Corcraft, a company described as the brand name for the Division of Correctional Industries within DoCCS. 

Corcraft is a New York state preferred source, meaning the company contracts with local governments to provide things like office supplies, road signs, call center services and more. According to the Corcraft website, the goal is to employ incarcerated individuals to produce goods while preparing them for release by teaching them work skills, work ethic and responsibility. 

The bill text for the Prison Minimum Wage Act says those contracts are a monopoly in the municipal institution market and goes on to address a connection between slavery and prison labor law. In the Assembly, the Prison Minimum Wage Act is sponsored by Member Harvey Epstein of District 74.

Harvey Epstein: We see this throughout New York. You see it when you walk the halls and the desks we sit at, in the chairs we sit in, and the hand sanitizer we're using. Our government is abusing New Yorkers, allowing slave labor and involuntary servitude for incarcerated people.

AY: Slavery was abolished with the 1863 Emancipation Proclamation and constitutionally by the 13th Amendment in 1865, but there's a caveat. Section one of the 13th Amendment states “neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States or any place subject to the jurisdiction.” Bill sponsors say that exception means New York is continuing to profit unfairly from the work of incarcerated individuals.

Latif Shamsuddin has spent his days inside Green Correctional Facility since 2017. Between his two jobs as a porter or custodian in the dorms and an IPA or teacher's assistant, he says he earns around $3 every two weeks.

Latif Shamsuddin: Just $3 every commissary and is supposed to be one of the top paying jobs because you're working with civilians hand in hand. I'm not seeing any of that. It can be docked for gate money, if you have child support that taps into that as well. So basically it leaves you with nothing, and that's the situation.

AY: Shamsuddin says wages can also be docked for restitution and fines like damaging state property fees. 

Rosemary Rivera, the co-executive director of Citizen Action of New York and the Public Policy and Education Fund, was incarcerated in the eighties. During her time inside, she caught a charge for damaging state property, her skin. 

Rosemary Rivera: One of the fundamental principles of slavery is the belief that the person enslaved is not a person, but the property of the slave master.

It is ingrained in my brain that I could be written up or end up in solitary confinement because I got a sunburn. I'm a real light-skinned Puerto Rican. You sit me in that yard for a while, I'm going to get some sun.

The charge that I got was damaging state property. 

AY: There are additional bills that attempt to improve the quality of life for folks living inside prisons. The bill that would create a prison labor board was introduced by Senator Myrie last session.

S416.A would create and monitor equitable working environments for incarcerated individuals. Senator Gallivan said the bill…

PG: Implies that conditions are inhumane, and the working conditions are poor. It shouldn't be the case if that is true, and I think we do have an obligation to ensure that there are humane conditions. There's a commission of correction who has oversight responsibility of all correctional facilities.

AY: On the Prison Minimum Wage Act, the Senator said if wages are raised for incarcerated individuals, it should relieve New York State taxpayers of certain costs.

PG: Prison, especially for New York State, should include a rehabilitation process, but taxpayers are paying for room, they're paying for board, they're paying for medical services, vocational services, educational services, very programmatic issues like anger management.

AY: Assemblymember Phil Palmesano serves the 132nd Assembly District. The assemblyman agrees with Senator Gallivan. He maintains that prison labor is not slave labor and any increase in wages should be awarded to correctional officers, not incarcerated individuals.

Phil Palmesano: Frankly, I think if we did ask the taxpayers for anything more, we should be looking at increasing wages for our corrections officers. I mean, the fact of the matter is the wages in our correctional facilities, it’s not about the wages, it’s about preparing them for employment. I mean, it's well documented, there’s a clear correlation.

AY: The bill would also cost the state money. Though supporters didn't say how much when asked, a cost estimate is not included as part of the bill. Some of Assembly member Palmesano’s colleagues across the aisle feel differently.

The bill that would enact the Prison Minimum Wage Act is currently in committee where it has died in previous years.

In the New York State Capitol for New York Now. Alexis Young.

DC: The State Department of Correction, which oversees state prisons, declined to comment on that bill. 

Dan Clark: We have an update on Good Cause Eviction. It's a bill that would set limits for landlords on when they could evict someone and how much rent can go up. Supporters want to see it passed as part of the budget, saying it would help tenants at a time when the economy's future is unclear, but Assembly housing chair Linda Rosenthal said this week that other issues have come first in the budget.

Linda Rosenthal: Things are not advancing forward as long as some other discussions have not come to a conclusion.

DC: We don't even really know if it's being seriously discussed at this point, but landlords have been the main opponents of the bill. They don't like any of it. Opponents also say it could hinder housing growth in New York, which is a big issue right now in the state budget. 

Governor Hochul wants to build 800,000 new housing units over the next decade, and opponents say good cause could get in the way.

Tim Foley is CEO of the Building and Realty Institute of Westchester.

Tim Foley: Because good cause eviction applies to everything, it applies to market rate, it applies to duplexes that you might build if you're not going to live in them yourselves. Soup to nuts, we think a lot of developers would be very cautious about getting in there and they might have some trouble securing the financing that we need to get anything built here in New York because it’s so expensive.

DC: We'll keep an eye on that over the next few weeks. 

Catch this week's show on your local PBS member station, or watch on YouTube, Facebook, or using the free PBS app anytime after Friday.

On This Week's Edition of New York NOW:

• One week after the deadline, New York still doesn't have a state budget. We have the latest.
• Jon Campbell from WNYC and Gothamist and Zach Williams from the New York Post join this week's panel.
• Are the wages paid to incarcerated people who work in prison enough? That depends on who you ask. We'll explore that issue.